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CLASSICS-L  February 2006, Week 1

CLASSICS-L February 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Fusc-budget (was: Meaning and obfuscation)

From:

"Hunsucker, R.L." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:22:56 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (124 lines)

I see that my "claim" (see way down below) has become your 
"vlaim" (below) (flame?? -- if so, you're churlishly putting words 
[intentions] into my mouth, or that's the "pun" to which you refer 
(wouldn't put it past you, you clever fox [or should I say weasel ?]; 
otherwise, an interesting modern-day text-critical problem).

As far as more substantive matters are concerned :  well, we'll just 
have to agree to disagree about agreement (in fact, in the strongest 
terms, as far as I'm concerned). Saying "our opinions/beliefs/
perceptions on this subject are the same." is pure horsefeathers ; 
nobody in his/her right mind would dream of uttering such a 
proposition (I hope).

But then again, maybe you _do_ believe in skyhooks.

- L. Hunsucker

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens James M. Pfundstein
> Verzonden: maandag 6 februari 2006 0:45
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Re: Fusc-budget (was: Meaning and obfuscation)
> 
> 
> On Feb 5, 2006, at 5:50 PM, Hunsucker, R.L. wrote:
> 
> >  One's basis of judgment and therefore comparison is also of course
> > subjective, and
> > must be. No passing is required for justifying such a vlaim. Saying
> > "I agree with you" is effectively nothing other (but a lot shorter
> > -- that's the main reason we do
> > it) than saying "the meaning that your utterance has to me is in
> > harmony with the relevant [n.b.: also subjective and situational]
> > beliefs which I hold and not in conflict with any other beliefs
> > that I hold".
> 
> By no means. "I agree with you" in this context means "our opinions/
> beliefs/perceptions on this subject are the same." It makes a truth
> claim, however conditionally, that the other person's meaning can be
> perceived and that the speaker assents to it. This is not
> controversial for some people, of course, but you have denied it. If
> you're going to use your principle to dispute other people's
> statements, it seems as if your own statements should at least be
> guided by your own principle, however awkward that may seem. Of
> course, if your principle ("meaning ... can't travel between two
> minds") is correct, all forms of human communication are more or less
> pointless, so I may be asking too much here.
> 
> JMP("Points, antitheses and puns")
> 


> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens Hunsucker, R.L.
> Verzonden: zondag 5 februari 2006 23:51
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Re: Fusc-budget (was: Meaning and obfuscation)
> 
> 
> "Matter doesn't matter ..." wrote :
> 
> > How can you, even conditionally, claim that one person 
> > agrees with another if, categorically, you insist that 
> > meaning can't pass from mind to mind? What's your basis 
> > for comparison?
> 
> 
> Not a problem, Clyde. One's basis of judgment and 
> therefore comparison is also of course subjective, and 
> must be. No passing is required for justifying such a 
> claim. Saying "I agree with you" is effectively nothing 
> other (but a lot shorter -- that's the main reason we do 
> it) than saying "the meaning that your utterance has to 
> me is in harmony with the relevant [n.b.: also subjective 
> and situational] beliefs which I hold and not in conflict 
> with any other beliefs that I hold". 
> 
> An element in that meaning is incidentally the recipient's 
> dealing with the (as N°rretranders puts it) "exformation" 
> involved in a message. "Information is not very interesting. 
> The interesting thing about a message is what happens 
> before it is formulated and after it has been received. Not 
> its information content. ... Meaning is information that 
> has been discarded, information that is no longer present 
> and no longer needs to be." (_The user illusion : cutting 
> consciousness down to size_, translated by Jonathan Sydenham, 
> 1999, p.96, 98). Talk about subjective, on both ends of the 
> communication. Even Davidson seemed not willing to admit the 
> reality of perfect agreement, but preferred (at least in the 
> article I cited in my previous posting) to speak in terms of 
> "optimizing" it.
> 
> No God's-eye views ; no skyhooks. For better or worse.
> 
> 
> - L. Hunsucker
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group on behalf of 
> James M. Pfundstein
> Sent: Sun 2/5/2006 6:27 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Fusc-budget (was: Meaning and obfuscation)
> 
> 
> nun oun, ˘ RLH, smikrou tinos endeŕs eimi pant' echein, ei moi 
> apokrinaio tode.
> 
> On Feb 5, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Hunsucker, R.L. wrote:
> 
> > the view on which you (and I, more or less) agree,
> 
> How can you, even conditionally, claim that one person agrees with 
> another if, categorically, you insist that meaning can't pass from 
> mind to mind? What's your basis for comparison?
> 
> JM("Matter doesn't matter if it's only idle chatter")P 
> 
>  
> 

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