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CLASSICS-L  February 2006, Week 1

CLASSICS-L February 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Fusc-budget (was: Meaning and obfuscation)

From:

"Hunsucker, R.L." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:19:36 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (150 lines)

"Pfundskerl" wrote,

> Why not? Apparently you consider everyone insane who 
> does not without question accede to your particular view 
> of epistemology. That's an unreasonable position, whether 
> your view is right or wrong.

Now, I did write that we'll as far as I'm concerned just have to 
agree to disagree about agreement (which incidentally was meant 
also to be funny in a logico-philosophical and Davidsonian way) 
-- which statement usually, I thought, carries the connotation 
"there's simply no absolute demonstration possible whose 
'particular view' is necessarily correct or incorrect, therefore let's 
each of us just amicably stick by what he thinks", and that's 
exactly the connotation I wanted to incite.

However, it's not simply a matter of considering anyone insane, it's 
a matter here of claiming that a position is untenable (until proven, 
which seems presently impossible, leaving aside my own belief that 
it is *by definition* untenable), i.e. the position that any two persons 
can have precisely the same perceptions (and it's the definition of 
"perception" that I had in mind when I wrote above that the position 
would be "*by definition* untenable", but the definition of "belief" 
may also qualify.) I apologize if my choice of words led to impressions 
of an ad-hominem characterization, something certainly not intended 
by me, and this lay also behind my addition of "(I hope)". 
In the face of a mountain of research-results and commentary and 
speculation and rumination by cognitive scientists/neurologists/
philosophers/psychologists (which you in an earlier posting implicitly 
dismissed simply with the word "nonsense", as I recall), can **you** 
render plausibly true the proposition that identical perception _can 
and in fact does_ exist in two different individuals ??  Given the 
obvious physiological/affective/experiential/intentional/contextual 
and situational/hereditary/social/cultural differences between (in 
fact, => uniqueness of) human beings, how is it even conceivable 
that such complex phenomena as perceptions and beliefs can ever 
be identical (and if they in rare cases were, how would you know that 
that was the case?; and if they can't be, where do you then establish 
a maximum of correspondence -- cf. Davidson's optimization of 
agreement which I mentioned?)

> that ... you can attribute such a
> peculiarly incoherent malicious intent to me on such very feeble
> grounds. Apparently this "no meaning" boundary between human minds is
> selectively permeable. At least in a rhetorical emergency.

Not at all my intention; I thought my formulation rather friendly; I guess 
I might better have stuck a smiley face in at the end of the first paragraph. 
But maybe this is a good (multiple) example of how meanings are indeed 
not transferrable.

> I can't imagine how your message got mutilated. ... The trouble is,
> I didn't type in your words; I just hit REPLY and used the quoted
> text my e-mail program generated. 

That was my assumption. That's why I characterized it as "interesting 
modern-day [i.e. electronic] text-critical problem". And that's why Patrick's 
response: "It is as simple a text-critical problem as one can imagine", from 
such a clever and careful guy, surprised me. The "c"/"v" keyboard error is 
one I too often make, but I couldn't easily imagine why you would have 
done any retyping under the given circumstances.

> I remind your that throughout this discussion it is you who have
> (churlishly or otherwise) tried to put words in my mouth ("skyhook";
> "God's-eye view" and other things I suppose are very wrong). If you
> think this is a bad way to argue (I agree), why do you argue this way?

Unnecessarily defensive ? ;  I remark again that my formulations seem to 
be being taken in an exaggeratedly ad hominem way. . Again my apologies 
that I didn't do more to try to avoid that. It's of course a question of 
positions rather than of persons "God's-eye view" is incidentally (i.e. has 
become) a sort of philosopher's jargon, and that's the way I (though 
certainly not a philosopher in the same sense) employed it; "God" in the 
more routine meaning is not the point.

You seem to be determined to argue that I am logically inconsistent or 
self-contradictory in that my beliefs forbid the use of expressions I use. 
I seem to detect the suggestion that my beliefs in your view should even 
make meaningful dialogue impossible. Not at all. If one accepts that 
meaning and understanding in human communication need not = exact 
meaning and understanding for that communication to work in practice. 
Transfer of meaning is at best approximate (one hopes: in  a high degree), 
and one's dealing with that transfer probabilistic. We've gotten along 
now for thousands of years -- as YR more than once pointed out not 
without, sometimes tragic, problems. Fortunately that also makes life 
particularly interesting, and I think myself that we can't do all that much 
about it in any case -- without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 
I try to imagine how the world would be if everyone were able to 
accomplish that his/her meaning and beliefs and perceptions were exactly
reproduced (or exactly recognizable) in others -- or if we were the kind of 
creature where that was even possible. (What would that mean for the
function -- or appreciation or study -- of poetry, music, art, for instance ? 
[Though it might be handy for poker.]) The I that I now am doesn't think 
he'd want to live in that world.

But I get the annoying feeling that I'm kicking in open doors, or maybe 
beating a dead horse, or maybe both at the same time (nice trick if you 
can do it), so I'll not go on.

- L. Hunsucker

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens James M. Pfundstein
> Verzonden: maandag 6 februari 2006 19:34
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Re: Fusc-budget (was: Meaning and obfuscation)
> 
> 
> On Feb 6, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Hunsucker, R.L. wrote:
> 
> > I see that my "claim" (see way down below) has become your
> > "vlaim" (below) (flame?? -- if so, you're churlishly putting words
> > [intentions] into my mouth, or that's the "pun" to which you refer
> > (wouldn't put it past you, you clever fox [or should I say 
> weasel ?];
> > otherwise, an interesting modern-day text-critical problem).
> 
> I can't imagine how your message got mutilated. Since "c" is next to
> "v" on the US keyboard, PTR's deduction of keyboard error seems the
> likeliest explanation; "vlaim" for "claim" seems to be a pretty
> common slip, according to a Google search I just did. The trouble is,
> I didn't type in your words; I just hit REPLY and used the quoted
> text my e-mail program generated. In any case, I apologize for not
> proofreading your quote better before I hit the send button.
> 
> But what's really interesting to me here is that, although you assert
> we can't pass meaning from mind to mind, you can attribute such a
> peculiarly incoherent malicious intent to me on such very feeble
> grounds. Apparently this "no meaning" boundary between human minds is
> selectively permeable. At least in a rhetorical emergency.
> 
> I remind your that throughout this discussion it is you who have
> (churlishly or otherwise) tried to put words in my mouth ("skyhook";
> "God's-eye view" and other things I suppose are very wrong). If you
> think this is a bad way to argue (I agree), why do you argue this way?
> 
> > As far as more substantive matters are concerned :  well, we'll just
> > have to agree to disagree about agreement (in fact, in the strongest
> > terms, as far as I'm concerned). Saying "our opinions/beliefs/
> > perceptions on this subject are the same." is pure horsefeathers ;
> > nobody in his/her right mind would dream of uttering such a
> > proposition (I hope).
> 
> Why not? Apparently you consider everyone insane who does not without
> question accede to your particular view of epistemology. That's an
> unreasonable position, whether your view is right or wrong.
> 
> JMP("Pfundskerl")
> 

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