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CLASSICS-L  February 2006, Week 1

CLASSICS-L February 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: definitive Classical Greek Grammar

From:

Bob Bethune <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:02:00 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (84 lines)

I've been trying to understand this off and on over the past couple of 
weeks and I really can't. It might help if I could access Pinkster as Helma 
recommends, but I can't; I go to http://cybergreek.uchicago.edu/ and click 
on the link to "An electronic version of Latin Syntax and Semantics" and 
get a "Cannot find server or DNS Error."

So, what don't I understand? Well, maybe I should start with, what is meant 
by "the sentence is not the highest relevant unit of analysis?" And later, 
"Ironically, 'New Testament'/Koine Greek is in better shape: in that field, 
the word is still pretty central to people's concerns?" I'm confused; I 
understand that a grammar might well concern itself with the structure of 
utterances longer than a sentence, but this sounds like it's headed the 
other way: that utterrances of word length are more important than longer 
ones? I'm very confused!

When I think about "a definitive Greek grammar" and wish I had one, I'm 
thinking about such problems as, "OK, I'm looking a a sentence where a 
simple negation (ou) is one heck of a long way away from various things I 
could plausibly argue it could be negating; what can somebody tell me about 
how negations regularly hook onto other words or sentence parts so that I 
can see if there is a definitive answer to what's going on in this 
sentence?" Is this in the same field of effort or concern? Is there a text 
that will reliably do that for me--preferably in English?

That's about as close as I can get to asking the questions I clearly don't 
know how to ask.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Helma Dik [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent:	Monday, January 16, 2006 11:27 AM
To:	[log in to unmask]
Subject:	Re: [CLASSICS-L] definitive Classical Greek Grammar

<warning: rantlike statement to follow>

I'd say that, unfortunately, Goodwin's M&T is a good substitute for
Smyth's sections on that area, but the rest of Goodwin is not nearly
as good. The advice remains that German and French/Spanish
(respectively for the standard grammar, and the languages of
publication for much current research) are indispensable for Greek
(synchronic) linguistics.

Then, perhaps worse when it comes to raising the lowest common
denominator in classrooms (and I mean the instructors as much as the
students), there is also the lack of a decent intermediate-size
reference grammar (good enough in lay-out to teach and learn from):
here the other European languages are in better shape, although one
might argue that Mastronarde's introductory textbook actually covers
most of that ground:-). For some, the widespread lack of expertise
fits into a simple narrative of decline for the classics, and this
attitude gains in credibility when even an occasional Green-and-
Yellow is unreliable on straightforward points of grammar, but I
think this is largely a problem of attitude on the part of authors,
editors and the field at large.

For I agree wholeheartedly with Anne that the attitude toward
existing scholarship is another important problem, or perhaps *the*
underlying problem. I learned in my first year as an Amsterdam
Classics undergrad that K-G was to be consulted, but critically; in
this country, the general attitude among classicists seems to be that
the description of Greek was finished a century ago, with a short
appendix on particles in the 20th cent.

What has changed about Greek (and Latin, for that matter), you ask?
The major breakthroughs, I suppose, fundamentally go back to the
realization that the sentence is not the highest relevant unit of
analysis. This has an impact on anything from tense & aspect,
particles, word order, reference, etc., where the grammars typically
say that more than one thing is perfectly 'grammatical', but fail to
distinguish in what kinds of contexts which of several alternative
constructions/orderings/particles is preferred. Ironically, 'New
Testament'/Koine Greek is in better shape: in that field, the word is
still pretty central to people's concerns:-)

For an overview of what we have learned or should be learning, and an
impression of the many remaining issues, Harm Pinkster's Latin Syntax
and Semantics (English edition 1990) is still the best choice. Out of
print but online at cybergreek.uchicago.edu (search function
currently down, sorry).

--
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