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CLASSICS-L  February 2006, Week 1

CLASSICS-L February 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Meaning

From:

"Hunsucker, R.L." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:49:54 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

I'm beginning to think that we're on different wavelengths here.

(_How_ someone phyically/perceptibly reacts to a verbal signal, 
even _that_ someone's reaction is exactly the one you wanted 
to effect, does say something [functional] about relationship of 
meanings, but does not say that the meaning in your head [if 
that's where the mind resides] resulting *in* your utterance is the 
same as the meaning in the other's head resulting *from* your 
utterance. Though it does say that on a certain level the 
communication was a success. This is something quite other 
than transferral or reproduction of meaning. Maybe we can 
better speak of 'thresholds of satisfactory [or, in Simon's term, 
"satisficing"] communication' or suchlike. The act of asking 
someone to pass the salt implies -- and therefore _means_, in 
different ways to the utterer and the recipient in their different 
conscious and unconscious worlds -- a great deal more than 
'within a few seconds a certain object must have been moved 
[by you/me] from position X to postion Y on this dining table').

Maybe the few of us harping about this should brush up on our 
Wittgenstein/Austin/Searle/Quine/et al. and then go off to 
some list on the philosophy of mind or the philosophy of 
language and carry on indefinitely. We've pretty much embarked 
from the Classics field (though I continue to hold that making 
the kind of distinction I was trying to make, and some others 
don't want to make, is a good start to a different though 
productive approach to all sorts of interpretative matters in that 
field -- which I like to think is infinitely more challenging [though 
not necessarily more important] than passing the salt or going 
off to your mailbox).

- L. Hunsucker

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens Yvonne Rathbone
> Verzonden: vrijdag 3 februari 2006 1:49
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Re: Meaning
> 
> 
> > > We can safely say that meaning never (by definition,
> > > in fact) arrives unchanged. Or, more accurately :
> > > meaning can not *arrive* at all, since it can't
> > > travel between two minds.
> >
> > This is very mere nonsense, you know. It fails a very 
> pragmatic test.
> > If someone tells me they have placed a dead weasel in my 
> mailbox, and
> > I go to the mailbox and find the weasel, we can safely say that
> > meaning _has_ travelled between two minds. (This happens all the
> > time, except that instead of a dead weasel the object is usually a
> > term paper which, candidly, I prefer even to live weasels.)
> 
> I use a model of thresholds of change.  A message is conveyed 
> and then we
> ask how well the message arrived intact by looking to see if 
> it crossed
> any thresholds of change.  Certainly this pragmatic threshold is easy
> enough to determine.  If I ask you to pass me the salt and 
> you pass me the
> pepper (knowing it's pepper), then the message obviously got 
> changed in
> transmission beyond a significant threshold.
> 
> What's not so easy to determine is when more subtle 
> thresholds of change
> are crossed.  The weasel gifter may have wanted to sound powerful and
> self-assured, but ended up conveying to you the sound of a 
> raving loony.
> (I find most people who say they've left dead weasels for people sound
> more loony than powerful, don't you?)  I may ask you to pass 
> the salt in
> what I consider a polite tone - the meaning I want to convey 
> including the
> message that I don't want to impose - but you hear my tone as 
> pompous.  It
> might take a while to hash out this change in meaning.  Or we 
> may never
> know it happened.  Years go by and the hurt we both felt that 
> night has
> hardened into emotional distance.  It's so terribly sad.  If 
> only one of
> us had opened up that night we might have been able to put it 
> all behind
> us.  But now... it's just too late.
> 
> So sad.
> 
> -Yvonne
> 

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