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CLASSICS-L  February 2006, Week 1

CLASSICS-L February 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: definitive Classical Greek Grammar

From:

Bob Bethune <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:14:31 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

As far as I can tell, it isn't. I try to open http://cybergreek.uchicago.edu/lss and get "Cannot find server or DNS Error."

-----Original Message-----
From:	Helma Dik [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent:	Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:04 PM
To:	[log in to unmask]
Subject:	Re: [CLASSICS-L] definitive Classical Greek Grammar

Hi. Looks like some text dropped out here.
However, LSS should be on line at cybergreek.uchicago.edu/lss

H


On Feb 1, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Bob Bethune wrote:

> I've been trying to understand this off and on over the past couple of
> weeks and I really can't. It might help if I could access Pinkster  
> as Helma
> recommends, but I can't; I go to http://cybergreek.uchicago.edu/  
> and click
> on the link to "An electronic version of Latin Syntax and  
> Semantics" and
> get a "Cannot find server or DNS Error."
>
> So, what don't I understand? Well, maybe I should start with, what  
> is meant
> by "the sentence is not the highest relevant unit of analysis?" And  
> later,
> "Ironically, 'New Testament'/Koine Greek is in better shape: in  
> that field,
> the word is still pretty central to people's concerns?" I'm  
> confused; I
> understand that a grammar might well concern itself with the  
> structure of
> utterances longer than a sentence, but this sounds like it's headed  
> the
> other way: that utterrances of word length are more important than  
> longer
> ones? I'm very confused!
>
> When I think about "a definitive Greek grammar" and wish I had one,  
> I'm
> thinking about such problems as, "OK, I'm looking a a sentence where a
> simple negation (ou) is one heck of a long way away from various  
> things I
> could plausibly argue it could be negating; what can somebody tell  
> me about
> how negations regularly hook onto other words or sentence parts so  
> that I
> can see if there is a definitive answer to what's going on in this
> sentence?" Is this in the same field of effort or concern? Is there  
> a text
> that will reliably do that for me--preferably in English?
>
> That's about as close as I can get to asking the questions I  
> clearly don't
> know how to ask.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Helma Dik [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent:	Monday, January 16, 2006 11:27 AM
> To:	[log in to unmask]
> Subject:	Re: [CLASSICS-L] definitive Classical Greek Grammar
>
> <warning: rantlike statement to follow>
>
> I'd say that, unfortunately, Goodwin's M&T is a good substitute for
> Smyth's sections on that area, but the rest of Goodwin is not nearly
> as good. The advice remains that German and French/Spanish
> (respectively for the standard grammar, and the languages of
> publication for much current research) are indispensable for Greek
> (synchronic) linguistics.
>
> Then, perhaps worse when it comes to raising the lowest common
> denominator in classrooms (and I mean the instructors as much as the
> students), there is also the lack of a decent intermediate-size
> reference grammar (good enough in lay-out to teach and learn from):
> here the other European languages are in better shape, although one
> might argue that Mastronarde's introductory textbook actually covers
> most of that ground:-). For some, the widespread lack of expertise
> fits into a simple narrative of decline for the classics, and this
> attitude gains in credibility when even an occasional Green-and-
> Yellow is unreliable on straightforward points of grammar, but I
> think this is largely a problem of attitude on the part of authors,
> editors and the field at large.
>
> For I agree wholeheartedly with Anne that the attitude toward
> existing scholarship is another important problem, or perhaps *the*
> underlying problem. I learned in my first year as an Amsterdam
> Classics undergrad that K-G was to be consulted, but critically; in
> this country, the general attitude among classicists seems to be that
> the description of Greek was finished a century ago, with a short
> appendix on particles in the 20th cent.
>
> What has changed about Greek (and Latin, for that matter), you ask?
> The major breakthroughs, I suppose, fundamentally go back to the
> realization that the sentence is not the highest relevant unit of
> analysis. This has an impact on anything from tense & aspect,
> particles, word order, reference, etc., where the grammars typically
> say that more than one thing is perfectly 'grammatical', but fail to
> distinguish in what kinds of contexts which of several alternative
> constructions/orderings/particles is preferred. Ironically, 'New
> Testament'/Koine Greek is in better shape: in that field, the word is
> still pretty central to people's concerns:-)
>
> For an overview of what we have learned or should be learning, and an
> impression of the many remaining issues, Harm Pinkster's Latin Syntax
> and Semantics (English edition 1990) is still the best choice. Out of
> print but online at cybergreek.uchicago.edu (search function
> currently down, sorry).
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release Date:  
> 1/27/2006
-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release Date: 2/2/2006


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release Date: 2/2/2006
 

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